On episode 3 of the Fire Safety Matters (FSM) Podcast recurring guest Warren Spencer, Managing Director - Blackhurst Budd Solicitors, answered questions from BAFE regarding his thoughts on Third-Party Certification and Government fire safety guidance.
Mark Sennett, Chief Executive Officer - of Western Business Media, asked, “The question we've had come in from BAFE is they would like to hear your thoughts on Third-Party Certification as a statutory defense. Can you give us an insight into that please Warren? “
due diligence
Warren responded, “Well there's only really one defense in the fire safety order and that’s due diligence and due diligence is that you took all reasonable precautions that any reasonable person would do to avoid the commission of an offense under the order…"
"I can't see any situation where third-party certification would not help, of course, it would. It would go some way towards showing due diligence."
fire risk assessment
Where this would apply most is where you've got perhaps a fire risk assessor arguing with a fire safety officer"
"Where this would apply most is where you've got perhaps a fire risk assessor arguing with a fire safety officer, as to what is appropriate as a strategy or as a fire risk assessment, what is suitable and sufficient."
"Clearly, if the fire risk assessor has got a third party certificate saying [they are an] accredited fire risk assessor and that's recognized in some way by the government [i.e. UKAS Accredited Third-Party Certification] then when the judge comes to decide whose evidence [they] prefer then that can level the playing field as far as the fire risk assessor and the fire safety officer is concerned.”
Fire Safety Bill
This insight comes in addition to The Minister of State (The Rt Hon James Brokenshire MP) recently discussing the Fire Safety Bill in the House of Commons (29/04/2020), “I am aware that the provisions of the Bill will require potentially significant numbers of responsible persons to review and update their fire risk assessments."
"For many, that will require specialist knowledge and the expertise of the fire risk assessor.” Mark Sennett continued to question Warren on this topic, asking if he felt the Government fire safety guidance documents carried the same weight as the HSE guidance available.
fire safety guidance
The hotelier argued that the guidance was just that, it wasn’t law, so he wasn’t bound by it"
Warren answered, “I’m not over-familiar with the health and safety guidance, but certainly the fire safety guidance documents are just that."
"My first ever case was a case where an enforcement notice had been issued to a hotel owner and the hotel owner was required to do certain things in accordance with the guidance. The hotelier argued that the guidance was just that, it wasn’t law, so he wasn’t bound by it."
achieving the safety measures
"The judge found that he was bound by the enforcement notice and actually said ‘Well this is guidance you’re quite right, if you're not going to follow the guidance you're going to have to show that you have achieved the goals that the guidance achieves in some other way’."
"In that case, he found that he hadn’t, so it is guidance but what's important is achieving the safety measures that the fire officers want you to achieve. The guidance in this area is fairly specific, but the idea of the order is that it's nonprescriptive. The guidance goes some way, the court will expect you to achieve the same goals that the guidance wants you to achieve if you don't follow the guidance in getting there.”
Warren Spencer’s comments
BAFE is pleased to hear Warren Spencer’s positive comments regarding the benefit of Third Party Certification
BAFE is pleased to hear Warren Spencer’s positive comments regarding the benefit of Third Party Certification and of the Government guidance documents (that stress the use of certificated providers for quality assurance).
He is a well-respected accredited Higher Courts Advocate with experience in over 200 fire safety legislation cases.
UKAS Accredited Third-Party Certification
Stephen Adams, Chief Executive – BAFE, commented, “Mr. Spencer’s discussion with Mark Sennett is insightful to the legal process and rational thought the judge would make with any prosecution. All the BAFE Schemes are monitored on a regular basis to ensure they remain the highest representation of quality and competence, following appropriate standards and best working practices."
"We are particularly pleased to hear that UKAS Accredited Third-Party Certification would help balance the judgment of the fire risk assessor and the fire safety officer in a court of law. This is important to note, as BAFE strongly believes all fire risk assessors should be Third Party Certificated to provide their service.”